This image (Imageshack host) summarizes the computations, based on 95% hit rate, 15% DA rate, 55% haste, 40% dual wield, and a "cRatio" of 1.5, with a 10% critical hit rate, with Blade: Jin as the weapon skill. The specific katana combination is Hochomasamune/Uzura, which is something I would consider getting as a "high-value" option, meaning that it's a highly effective option that I don't have to waste as much time doing boring shit to get this as I would for other options.
First, let's start with Samurai Roll (augmented by the presence of a samurai). The following is a table summarizing the relative increase in the (theoretical maximum) rate of damage from each of several desirable Samurai Roll outcomes.
Roll total Bonus Damage/second Relative efficiency
---------------------------------------------------------------
- - 113.607 -
2 42 STP 123.979 9.13%
7 26 119.672 5.34%
8 30 121.410 6.87%
9 32 121.414 6.87%
10 34 121.458 6.91%
11 50 126.684 11.51%
The relative increase for each store TP bonus is decent, but not as high as you would expect for two-handed weapons since the proportion of total damage from Blade: Jin for katana is realistically never going to be as high as the proportion of total damage from the (generally) best weapon skills for two-handed weapons (e.g. Drakesbane, Raging Rush, Tachi: Gekko).
In contrast, Fighter's Roll (here augmented from the presence of a warrior) increases auto-attack damage, weapon skill frequency, and weapon skill damage, so it's not a surprise that Fighter's Roll is generally easily superior to Samurai Roll for increasing rates of damage:
Roll total Bonus Damage/second Relative efficiency
---------------------------------------------------------------
- - 113.607 -
5 15% DA 129.567 14.05%
7 11% 125.291 10.28%
8 12% 126.358 11.22%
10 13% 127.427 12.16%
11 19% 133.857 17.82%
Note that these are supposed to be the actual DA percent bonuses after the infamous August 2007 version update (source), you know, the one that resulted in ninja being disregarded as DD. If they were what they were before that update, assuming there was a change (higher than what they are now), Fighter's Roll would be even better.
So, if Fighter's Roll can be shown to be better for the job that gets the least relative benefit from Fighter's Roll (warrior), as well as for ninja (though this could be considered self-evident), are there even any legitimate reasons to use Samurai Roll? No, "TP overflow" is an incorrect and stupid answer that betrays a lack of conceptual understanding.
Now, that's not to say Samurai Roll has no application. Maybe it would be desirable to maximize the ratio of damage efficiency to TP "fed" to a mob rather than consider damage efficiency in isolation. I doubt Monk's Roll would do the job, but a case could be made for Samurai Roll.
Also, if it is desirable to maximize weapon skill frequency, Samurai Roll would generally be better for that purpose than Fighter's Roll. (Also related is maximizing TP per hit, which would be desirable for dancer.)
Also, Fighter's Roll can be said to be "contraindicated" for use with multi-hit weapons (that don't use virtue stones) such as Magian multi-hit weapons. (But this assumes Magian multi-hit weapons are actually good, which is not necessarily true.)
Ironically enough, Samurai Roll tends to be a competitive choice for COR, for a few reasons:
ReplyDelete1) COR/DNC (arguably the best SJ in situations where COR is allowed to melee) benefits from extra TP on its own merits, for reasons outside of time-to-100-TP or damage dealt
2) COR is effectively the only job that can make serious (non-zerg) sustained use of M.Kris, which (as you noted) does not benefit from Fighter's as much as standard weapons; this is quite relevant for COR/DNC*
3) This almost goes without saying, but Fighter's does nothing for ranged attacks, so it's a non-buff for RNG (and, *very* occasionally, ranged COR)
*The introduction of DW for /DNC (i.e. M.Kris+Joy) makes this argument slightly less compelling than it was a few months ago, but ultimately, single-wield M.Kris is still the fastest TPing weapon for COR, so it's still a relevant choice.
Good points for COR. A few thoughts:
ReplyDeleteIf rangers endeavor to attain a 5-hit ranged weapon setup, SAM roll doesn't seem to help that much unless additional store TP in excess of what is necessary is included (and you need the job bonus for the roll).
Mercurial Kris alone has a higher rate of TP generation than Joyeuse/Mercurial Kris (like ~7.4% higher without any JA/WS interruption, and with Brutal, Rajas, and Suppa), so the benefits of /DNC seem to outweigh the poor base damage of M. Kris for TP'ing.
Well, the main point I was making was not that Samurai Roll is a great buff for RNG... it's just not completely useless like Fighter's is. In any case, I think you may be giving Samurai a bit of a bad rap, especially for gun RNGs.
ReplyDelete1) To move from 5-hit to 4-hit, bow/xbow needs STP+33, while gun needs STP+30. Presuming you have SAM in party, that means 5 of the 6 "stayable" totals will benefit gun (II, VIII, IX, X, XI) and 3 will benefit bow/xbow (II, X, XI); an astute bow/xbow RNG can adjust his base STP to make VIII and IX work without too much trouble.
2) Much less significantly, Conserve TP's variable return can help even non-hit-tiered STP levels hit 100 TP faster (though to be fair, Conserve TP reduces the value of an x-hit build by the same amount).