Thursday, July 8, 2010

When to use Snake Eye?

What is the appropriate use of Snake Eye?

Recently, I was challenged on the notion that "it is typical to use Snake Eye to get a lucky Phantom Roll total or avoid an unlucky one" (my words).

Instead, it is recommended to save Snake Eye to get an 11 (XI) or to avoid an unlucky roll, while not using Snake Eye to get a lucky total. (Note that there is no reason that Snake Eye couldn't be used on 10 if Snake Eye wasn't used to get there regardless of whether there is intent to use Snake Eye to get a lucky roll.) Can it can be shown probabilistically which Snake Eye tactic is better?

Example: Corsair's roll

Corsair's roll being the only relevant roll for experience parties, let's just use this as an example. For reference, here are the experience point bonuses for "desirable" outcomes based on a tactic of rolling based on the expected value of the bonus if you continue to Double Up, given your current total, exceeding the bonus for your current total, which I have called an "expected value on Double Up" criterion (EVDU). Of course, with Snake Eye available, the unlucky total can be avoided entirely. (See this spreadsheet if that doesn't make sense):

Roll total EXP Bonus
------------------------
5 20%
7 15%
8 16%
9 8%
10 17%
11 24%

For all probability calculations, assume job abilities occur instantaneously without recast restrictions for the sake of clarity. Also assume for simplicity that Phantom Roll always has one of several desirable outcomes in effect (Phantom Roll never wearing off) and that Snake Eye can be used only once toward the final outcome. Also assume Phantom Roll lasts either 5 or 10 minutes because who merits Winning Streak? Finally, let us assume no bust-mitigation measures (for now).

First, let's consider the "recommended" course of action, which is to save Snake Eye to get an eleven or to avoid an unlucky roll. In other words, use Snake Eye on 9 or 10. This kind of makes sense to do, since eleven lasts longer and I don't really see a downside to Corsair's roll lasting 10 minutes.

The probability distribution (numbers rounded to ten digits) of getting one of the possible outcomes (shown previously) follows:

Roll total Probability
--------------------------
5 .3087705771
7 .1935656731
8 .1657878952
10 .1333804876
11 .1470336084
Bust .0514617630

Obviously, with 11 lasting twice as long as each of the others, the relevant consideration is the "proportion of time spent under each effect," so the probabilities need to be adjusted:

Roll total Probability
--------------------------
5 .2691905221
7 .1687532701
8 .1445362135
10 .1162829808
11 .2563719263
Bust .0448650871

Based on that, the expected (long run) EXP bonus is 18.357% if you use Snake Eye to get 11 and to avoid a 9.

Now, what if you take a more conservative tack and Snake Eye given three conditions: when you are on a 4 (one less than lucky, 5), when you are on a 9 (unlucky), or when you are on a 10? The probabilities (adjusting for time duration differences) shake out as follows:

Roll total Probability
--------------------------
5 .4864098317
7 .1305837864
8 .1050579060
10 .0752777122
11 .1621366109
Bust .0405341527

Based on that, the expected (long run) EXP bonus is 18.538% if you use Snake Eye to get a 5 (lucky), 10 (avoid an unlucky), or 11. This approach is better probabilistically and you have a lower probability of busting!

For the sake of comparison, the expected EXP bonus if you take a timid approach and avoid busting completely (never getting an 11), but use Snake Eye where it makes sense, is 17.89%.

Um... why don't you account for bust mitigation?

Suppose hypothetically that you can re-roll (start over) indefinitely (and instantaneously) to avoid a bust. Then the asymptotic probabilities for both Snake Eye tactics are as follows:

Roll total Snake Eye on 9 or 10 Snake Eye on 4, 9, or 10
----------------------------------------------------------------
5 .2818350774 .5069589846
7 .1766800353 .1361005051
8 .1513254427 .1094962435
10 .1217450847 .0784579382
11 .2684143600 .1689863286

The (limiting) expected EXP bonus when using Snake Eye on 9 or 10 is 19.22%, while the (limiting) expected EXP bonus when using Snake Eye on 4, 9, or 10 is 19.322%.

Conclusion

Two Snake Eye tactics were considered for Corsair's roll. One tactic is to use Snake Eye on 9 or 10 (emphasizing getting an 11 at the expense of getting a 5), and the other tactic is to use Snake Eye on 4, 9, or 10 (no emphasis on getting an 11).

Using Snake Eye on 4, 9, or 10 is a superior tactic regardless of attempts at bust mitigation.

By "going for broke" (getting an 11), you give up a sure thing, and the trade-off is not worth it (even if the difference is slight), and this is before considering time spent under suboptimal EXP bonuses in the process of achieving a desirable total.

10 comments:

  1. I don't see any problem with your math. The only issue I have, as we stated before, is that this is effectively a strategy for Corsair's Roll when you don't care about the results of any of your other rolls, and therefore has a built-in presumption that using Snake Eye to hit Lucky on Corsair's is more worthwhile than using Snake Eye to avoid Unlucky (or hit XI) on any other roll.

    As such, this strategy (using Snake Eye at Lucky-1) is strictly and specifically limited to Corsair's Roll, and cannot be applied as a general guideline to Phantom Roll as a whole. But as long as that bit is clarified, I have no quarrel with your assertion.

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  2. You are right except for the part that if you do this, you "don't care" about the results of other rolls. (You just don't care about minimizing the probability of unlucky totals given the expected value criterion.)

    But I would be the first to argue that probabilistically better (based on some simplifications) shouldn't necessarily be considered meaningfully better, so my assertion that it's "superior" is really an overstatement as well.

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  3. Well, primarily what I meant is that you ask "What is the appropriate use of Snake Eye?" and state that "Using Snake Eye on 4, 9, or 10 is a superior tactic," but the roll you choose as your example is one that significantly out-prioritizes your other rolls.

    Therefore, your analysis does not accurately represent the ideal tactic for rolling in any situation where Corsair's Roll is undesirable (e.g. Dynamis, Limbus, Abyssea, etc.), but rather addresses the question of "What is the appropriate use of Snake Eye for Corsair's Roll?" (given that Corsair's Roll would be presumed to out-prioritize other rolls in any situation you are using it)

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  4. I would hope no one thinks using Snake Eye on 4, 9, or 10 is something to be done for any other roll.

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  5. I'd have to disagree with you, Dan.

    Typically, I prioritize my rolls from what I care about most>least. That way using Snake Eye on one roll doesn't bother me if I hit unlucky on the following rolls.

    When rolling for melee parties (not exp) DRK>SAM>SMN>SCH. I put DRK first because it's the only unlucky between those rolls that matters to me. Getting 6 on SAM isn't a big deal--just risk it (even if Snake Eye is up). Same goes for SCH. With SMN, unlucky is hardly a difference if your mage is any good (and I'd never take COR over a BRD in a melee party, so I'm assuming they're also getting double ballad). Even if it's up, I tend to not use Snake Eye at all on SMN unless mage is really bad on MP, and using it on SCH would just be a waste.

    In a RNG party, DRK>RNG>SMN>SCH. What kind of RNG is going to complain about an unlucky roll anyway... Strategy generally still the same as above.

    When rolling in merit parties, SMN>COR>DRK. The order only changes to keep COR and DRK on myself, so I just ignore SMN roll, even if unlucky.

    When rolling in any other party that I can think of, you use two rolls. So BLU/BLM/BST/DRG>SMN. And since I have Winning Streak merits, I'd use Snake Eye on SMN if I didn't use it on the first roll in this case.

    So I apply the posted strategy to all practical rolls except those with 6 as unlucky, and Evoker's roll in any situation where I'm using 3+ rolls. You're really not sacrificing anything at all if you use the right order.



    To Robonosto:

    Curious as to what is wrong with Winning Streak merits. No doubt every COR should have 5/5 Snake Eye, but multiple Fold merits is overrated (unless you're busting every single Corsair's Roll, which is the only bust I can see a COR fretting about, even if they're DDing), and multiple Loaded Deck merits is...>_>

    I have 3 merits in Winning Streak, and I'm quite fond of them because it means Snake Eye will -always- be available for my first roll (since in a 3/4 roll order, I don't use it on SMN or SCH). The downside is, since the past update, it screws up times when you hit an 11 unless you preemptively start rolling a minute early, which I usually forget to do.

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  6. It's true that I didn't consider Winning Streak in estimating the "proportion of time a particular buff value is active," but I don't think things would change all that much. I don't recall explicitly saying anything negative about Winning Streak merits.

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  7. Flippant, the order you roll in does not matter; either you choose to reserve Snake Eye for the use of one roll and one roll only, or you don't.

    The flaw in your logic is patently obvious in a 4-roll rotation (say, your stated melee rotation): even if you roll a natural Lucky on DRK, you can't use Snake Eye on any of your other rolls, because then it won't be available the next time DRK comes up.

    You can use Snake Eye to protect one roll absolutely, or you can use it to partially protect all of your rolls. In the case of the latter, using Snake Eye on Lucky-1 is a bad idea.

    Robonosto, your exact quote was, "Also assume Phantom Roll lasts either 5 or 10 minutes because who merits Winning Streak?", which seems to imply that it's a bad idea.

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  8. I acknowledge the implication is there, but I did consult the 9th Vana'diel census, which shows that Winning Streak is the least "merited" of all the corsair group 2 merits (although any sort of Winning Streak makes up 15% of the merit "units" or "items," however SE wants to call it).

    http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/09/4.html

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  9. Well, I'm not sure if this explains it, but the conventional wisdom for corsair group 2 merit order is:

    - 1 each of Snake Eye, Fold, and Loaded Deck, in whatever order
    - Snake Eye x4 to cap it
    - Winning Streak x3

    So it stands to reason that Winning Streak would show as a relatively low percentage of the population , because only full merited Corsairs would have it. If there were a way to break out the merit distribution of capped CORs, I'd imagine Winning Streak would poll pretty high.

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  10. Winning Streak 3/5 appears to occur as often as Winning Streak 1/5 (about 6-7% of all merit "realizations"), so that makes sense.

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