This is the only discussion I've seen so far (2006) that entertains the possibility that the outcome of Phantom Roll (I through VI inclusive) is not uniformly distributed. The point of the data collection was to find some evidence that the die becomes weighted in the presence of the optimal job associated with the specific roll (Bard with Choral Roll, etc.). You can read the thread for details.
The first example, with 700 uses of Corsair's Roll, did not yield compelling evidence against unbiasedness (p-value .0811).
The other eight examples involved sampling 100 times under varying conditions. At this point it bears reminding that the distribution of p-values under the null hypothesis of a fair die is (asymptotically) uniformly distributed (keeping in mind bin specification for the sake of generating histograms), as illustrated below with a bunch of simulated p-values sorted into histogram bins, given a sample size of 100.

I bring this up only as a reminder of what the possible p-values can be under the null hypothesis.
For the remaining eight data sets, tests for unbiasedness yield p-values of .4614, .2739, .3601, .007439, .7974, .3101, .09696, and .2763. Based on this crude analysis, only the data set for Healer's Roll with WHM present showed statistically significant evidence of biasedness (specifically 30/100 for a roll of I), but compared to the other non-significant results, it seems difficult to attribute this to something other than Type I error.
Of course, the primary question of interest was not whether Phantom Roll gives unbiased rolls regardless of situation, but whether the presence of the optimal job changes the "weight" of the roll. Tests for homogeneity for each specific roll (multiple testing duly noted) give p-values of .5402 (bard), .1077 (white mage), .6433 (ranger), and .1099 (thief).
Generally speaking, chi-square tests have pretty low power, and one tends not to "invert" these to (sets of) confidence intervals to get a good sense of how (in)adequate the sample sizes are. But considering this data as a whole there isn't a particularly good reason to think that the Phantom Roll die is biased.
Now, optimality of two Phantom Roll approaches
The following could basically be summarized as comparing the pros and cons of busting more versus busting less depending on how you go about doubling up.
There is a spreadsheet that provides a convenient summary of whether to Double-Up for various roll types, based on a criterion of conditional expectation (actual buff value), given the current roll total. Basically, consideration of (conditional) expected value is a formal way to make a decision that can be mostly carried out using common sense--you will never double up with a total of 11, as the expected value of the buff after Double-Up must be 0--but addressing borderline cases where it may not be obvious whether one should double-up, for example if your current roll is 6. I awkwardly call this the "expected value on double-up" (EVDU) approach.
The spreadsheet also gives an unconditional expected value of the roll after doubling up based on the expected value criterion, which could be useful for comparing different types of rolls on a "long-run" basis.
For wannabe nerds who can't even calculate the conditional expectations or understand probability, that is one way to go about it. Not unexpectedly, these min/maxing wannabe nerds frown upon conservative approaches that seek to minimize the probability of a Bust, with the implication that people who refuse to Double-Up on a 6 are "suboptimal." For the remainder of this post, I will call categorical refusal to Double-Up on 6 (unless 6 is unlucky), yet still Doubling-Up if one gets an "unlucky" total (therefore risking a Bust), as the "conservative" approach (and the only one I will consider in this post).
I am willing to bet that most of the people who advocate EVDU (implicitly or not) never actually bothered to compare EVDU with more conservative approaches quantitatively, especially for specific types of rolls. By quantitatively, I mean comparing (unconditional) expected values under each approach to see how much better in the long-run EVDU is, and also comparing the busting proportions under each approach to see how much riskier in the long-run EVDU is.
Personally, I don't really give a shit what rolling strategy a corsair actually uses, since to me it mostly falls under the purview of individual playing style.
Consider Corsair's Roll, for example. Under EVDU, the expected percentage increase in EXP is 15.66% while the conservative approach gives an expected increase of 15.55%, which to me is a really trivial difference. Moreover, the probability of busting under EVDU is .051 while the probability of busting "conservatively" is 0. If you are willing to assume an actual 5% (non-zero) chance of busting for a theoretical 0.11% long-run increase in EXP, fine. But here, the tradeoff between risk and reward is not all that good.
I also estimated the probabilities for the Corsair's Roll bonuses under each strategy (since I didn't want to waste even more time thinking about how to hand-calculate them) to make it easier to compare the strategies in probabilistic terms. (Relative frequencies may not add up to 1 due to rounding.)
| COR Roll | EVDU | Conservative |
| Bust | .051 | .000 |
| 8% | .134 | .082 |
| 13% | .000 | .309 |
| 15% | .193 | .142 |
| 16% | .165 | .114 |
| 17% | .095 | .044 |
| 20% | .309 | .309 |
| 24% | .052 | .000 |
I colored the relevant probabilities one "side" might use to make a case against the other. Note that the probability of obtaining the "lucky" result (20% EXP increase) is the same regardless of approach. I also did the same for Hunter's Roll (melee and ranged accuracy) and Chaos Roll (melee and ranged attack) without the presence of the optimal job.
Again, the tradeoff between risk and reward is not so great. Whether you, as a corsair, want to make that tradeoff should be up to you and not to dumbasses who need to rely on mindless rules of thumb because they don't know any better. Personally, I would rather allocate all of my busting risk to another roll rather than to Corsair's Roll if the increased risk is actually worth it on another roll. But when is it worth it? I repeat the above exercise with both Hunter's Roll and Chaos Roll, rolls that are available early on.
For Hunter's Roll, the expected value under EVDU is 29.63 accuracy, and 28.09 taking the more conservative tack. Clearly, a 1.54-point difference in average accuracy is such a profound increase as to assume a greater risk of busting. The estimated probabilities are given below.
| RNG Roll | EVDU | Conservative |
| Bust | .135 | .057 |
| 20 | .000 | .3o9 |
| 25 | .194 | .142 |
| 27 | .161 | .101 |
| 30 | .124 | .063 |
| 40 | .264 | .264 |
| 50 | .122 | .064 |
For Chaos Roll, the expected value under EVDU is 18.6% attack increase (47.5/256), and 17.6% attack increase (45.0/256) playing it conservatively. Again, a 0.98% average difference in attack obviously warrants the increased risk of busting. The estimated probabilities are given below.
| DRK Roll (xx/256) | EVDU | Conservative |
| Bust | .134 | .058 |
| 32 | .000 | .3o8 |
| 40 | .193 | .142 |
| 44 | .163 | .101 |
| 48 | .124 | .063 |
| 64 | .265 | .265 |
| 80 | .124 | .063 |
Sure, a 1-point or 1% difference may be important enough to you, but 0.11%?
I spent time constructing this post while considering whether to level corsair to 75. (I won't but not based on what I found in this post. Ultimately I'd rather buy an account with a ready-to-play COR75 than waste time leveling another job to 75.) Take-home message: do whatever the hell you want as long as you can support it logically.
While I'm not well versed in probability and statistics, I still learned quite a bit from this. I do have a question though; how does Snake Eye (particularly fully merited and thus on a five minute timer) affect the benefit of doubling up on 6? I don't imagine it will be substantial, but I am curious!
ReplyDeleteTo the extent that the outcome of 7 is not worse than 6, then it would seem to be beneficial always to Double-Up/Snake Eye on 6 (time constraints notwithstanding) and then stop. Of course, the change in expected value would be based on the actual improvement in buff from 6 to 7. (I may do it later if I have time.)
ReplyDeleteAt any rate, for all three of the rolls I considered, one stops at 7 for both "conservative" and EVDU cases if 6 is not unlucky.
Actually, I forgot to consider the rolls with 6 as an "unlucky" result. Especially for Samurai Roll (where applicable), it is better probabilistically to Double-Up with or without the aid of Snake Eye.
The reason I was asking is while going from a 6 to a 10 might not be a huge bonus, Snake Eyeing that 10 to an 11 can be (depending on the roll of course). Or maybe I'm overestimating. :)
ReplyDeleteThanks for answering my questions by the way. :)
You can still use the conditional expectation argument as shown in the spreadsheet. Just modify the roll values to those you would get by doubling up with Snake Eye. Either you Double Up with Snake Eye or you Double Up with the opportunity to Snake Eye on a higher total.
ReplyDeleteFor example, one could Snake Eye on 6 to get a guaranteed increase (if 7 is not unlucky). Or, one could take a chance with a Double-Up for the possibility of going from 10 to 11. The conditional expectation summarizes the average, given that you are on 6.
If I incorporate Snake Eye into the above "strategies," I obtain the following results:
-------------
Hunter's Roll
-------------
35.60 EVDU
34.03 conservative
(+1.57 accuracy difference)
EVDU
0: .092
25: .000
27: .137
30: .106
40: .454
50: .211
conservative
0: .000
25: .363
27: .070
30: .038
40: .454
50: .075
----------
Chaos Roll
----------
57.07/256 EVDU
54.70/256 conservative
(+0.926% attack difference)
EVDU
0: .091
40: .000
44: .138
48: .106
64: .455
80: .211
conservative
0: .000
40: .362
44: .071
48: .038
64: .455
80: .075
Notice that the "conservative" label actually makes sense now because one would never Double Up above 5. Therefore, there is no risk of busting by rolling conservatively with Snake Eye. Also, the risk of busting under EVDU is reduced with Snake Eye (obviously) but is still non-zero.
In conclusion, EVDU is still marginally better than the conservative approach for RNG and DRK Roll (Snake Eye and COR Roll seems a waste to me), but the conservative approach is more "stable" (obviously) and risk-free (obviously).
Hi; sorry for the late response, but I just found this blog. I'm the person that maintains the spreadsheet that you linked with the EVDU numbers. I can address some of your concerns:
ReplyDelete1) While an anti-Bust strategy is certainly worthwhile for pre-75 Corsairs (and critically vital for someone subbing COR), merited CORs have plenty of tools to deal with Busts. Your analysis of the return on rolls (given x% Bust probability) does not appear to account for the fact that a merited COR can Fold, Random Deal, and reroll any single given Bust (with 7 seconds downtime) within a 20-minute time period. This is one of the primary reasons why the EVDU strategy has been accepted over more conservative strategies; while any COR can hit an unlucky quad-6 streak, overall, Busts are fairly easy to deal with.
2) Your comparison of Corsair's Roll (using an EVDU and a conservative strategy) has the Bust probability for conservative listed a .000, yet your conservative strategy is defined as "categorical refusal to Double-Up on 6 (unless 6 is unlucky), yet still Doubling-Up if one gets an "unlucky" total". Under the EVDU strategy, VI is doubled but IX is not. How, then, does your conservative strategy (where IX is doubled but VI is not) result in a lower Bust probability? This seems particularly perplexing as you later state that you see the usage of Snake Eye on Corsair's Roll as "a waste."
Thanks for the feedback as it's nice to get called on some B.S. once in a while.
ReplyDeleteYes, things like Fold and Random Deal can be considered, but actually accounting for them would take more work than I was willing to put in at the time. But rolling a die is a Markov chain (although I didn't see it that way at the time) so the limiting probabilities are easy to obtain if anyone wanted to do so.
Corsair's Roll: categorical refusal to double up on 6 means that it's impossible to bust. I did not do a complete definition.
In general, the straw man of a conservative COR holds that that COR never wants to bust. As a consequence, that timid COR would have to eat an unlucky roll some of the time, as the COR would never want to bust even if Corsair's Roll is on a 9.
As for Snake Eye and Corsair's roll, I would take that back now since Corsair roll trumps all as far as maximizing EXP/hour is concerned. Snake Eye changes things a little.
Overall though, I would still argue that even with risk-mitigation tools (you get Snake Eye whether you are conservative or not), EVDU is still not that much better than being hyperconservative (I just made an imperfect attempt to quantify the difference).
So, another question: if the conservative COR never wants to bust, why do your original calculations for RNG and DRK roll assign a .057 and .058 probability for Bust under the conservative strategy?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, I think the core issue that you have to address to make this argument (and the primary reason why we decided to go with EVDU for roll evaluation) is: what is the impact of a Bust? It's one thing to say that EVDU is only 1% increase over a no-Bust strategy, but if a Bust has only (for example) a 0.5% negative impact, then EVDU is still the better choice.
In short: you can't truly evaluate conservative vs. EVDU unless you quantify the effect of a Bust. No one in the COR community was willing to try to tie that down (due to the large number of variables involved), so the eventual consensus was basically to run the numbers on an "instant" basis, and simply consider Bust as "start over." If you can actually quantify Bust's impact to the party, the EVDU spreadsheet will spit out an accurate roll strategy if you input that number in the Bust field (instead of the current value of 0).